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<  Amphilophus (like Midas and Trimac) Talk  ~  Midas or Labiatum? Male or Female?

TenaciousTankBuster
Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 2:43 am Reply with quote
A. lyonsi Joined: 14 Feb 2006 Posts: 154 Location: Los Angeles, California
I just recently purchased 6 small "Red Devils" from a local fish store. Natural Selection has already kicked in with one dominate fish (the fish in these pictures and the one in the center). He's only about 1 1/2 inch long but if possible, I'd like a guess on the sex if anyone could. He is the dominate aggressor in the tank, and very hyper-territorial so I'd assume he's male.

Also this is the first time I have ever bought red devils that were grey and uncolored like this. Just how long does it take for them to color up and turn peach, yellow, orange, or white? It looks like my smallest one is indeed turning into what appears to be a solid white!

Could you guys please give me some educated guesses on whether these fish are labiatum or citrinellus? And wether or not the big guy (the one always in the center of the group; and alone) is indeed a male. I've looked at some pictures over at cichlid scene and the baby midas' look nearly identical to these. Someone over at cichlids.com also mentioned that he was 85% sure they were indeed Midas.

I'm really hoping this guy is a Male and also has atleast "some" Midas in him if he's a hybrid of sorts. I'm also posting a few other pictures of the 5 that are left out of the brood. Sorry if I should be posting these in the "Show your shots" section but this is really more of a question then a side show.

Educated guesses and opinions only on species and sex.
Thanks in Advance.





Could the height in the dorsal fin be any indication that this is a male?



Here he is again, in the center:

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sebastian
Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 7:32 am Reply with quote
Advice Team Joined: 18 Oct 2005 Posts: 308 Location: POLAND
it is hard to say the fish is still too small i got fh thath was the same large as yours but after a month a second fh grow larger than him and stayed the dominate fish the first fh was a female and the second a male but i recognized the sex later when they were 4 months old

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daint2003
Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:31 am Reply with quote
Advice Team Joined: 12 Nov 2005 Posts: 61 Location: Saigon, Vietnam
Quote:
He's only about 1 1/2 inch long but if possible, I'd like a guess on the sex if anyone could. He is the dominate aggressor in the tank, and very hyper-territorial so I'd assume he's male.

As far as I know, Yes, he will be a male. This article will explain why: http://www.cichlidae.com/article.php?id=100

Quote:
Just how long does it take for them to color up and turn peach, yellow, orange, or white? It looks like my smallest one is indeed turning into what appears to be a solid white!

With my Red Devil, it is from 3 to 4 months old. It look white because it has not store enough carotein. I got the same problem then I fed my Red Devil with tiny schrimp at 3 months old. Now, they look almost red and orange.

Quote:
Could you guys please give me some educated guesses on whether these fish are labiatum or citrinellus?

This is my favorite subject. My answer is that the fish apperance says nothing about its gene pool. These are my fish, I breed them, raise them up so the fish "source" is truthfully:

This guy has long and pointed snout as in Red Devil (A. labiatus)


This guy also has long and pointed snout, there is a little lobe on his upper lip (this lobe in wild RD is big).


This guy has thin lips and look 100% Midas (A. citrinellus). I am still keeping him in my tank.


This guy is something between Midas and RD


They are in the same family therefore I conclude that I own Midas/Red Devil hybrid. So DON'T BELIEVE IN YOUR EYES, please buy fish from the famous breeder to make sure they are pure.

Additional, you can read this article: http://www.cichlidae.com/article.php?id=106 . Dr. Loiselle will tell you much information about Midas/RD/hybrid.
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TenaciousTankBuster
Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 12:06 am Reply with quote
A. lyonsi Joined: 14 Feb 2006 Posts: 154 Location: Los Angeles, California
sebastian wrote:
it is hard to say the fish is still too small i got fh thath was the same large as yours but after a month a second fh grow larger than him and stayed the dominate fish the first fh was a female and the second a male but i recognized the sex later when they were 4 months old


Wow. I never had that happen. For the most part the dominant fish always stayed the dominant fish in the tank. Even when I was keeping africans this was always the case. I'm sure it can happen though, and I'll keep that in mind.

I still am hoping he is a male. I'm just dying to see what color moph nature is going to give him.
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TenaciousTankBuster
Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 12:21 am Reply with quote
A. lyonsi Joined: 14 Feb 2006 Posts: 154 Location: Los Angeles, California
Daint2003,

Thanks for the links, they were all intresting reads. So basically the fish you showed of yours...you have concluded that is indeed a hybrid?

Also I forgot to mention, the smallest fish I have that is turning white, also has dark red on its anal, pectorial and dorsal fins. Personally, I always wanted either Pure white or a white/yellow or white/orange morph.

Basically I was wondering how often do you feed them frozen shrimp? Also like I said, my smallest fish is the only one that has begun to morph. All the rest have red eyes and the red tint in all thier fins. My question is:

Would the one fish that has began to morph be any indication that the rest would also turn out white with red fins? Or does every fish differ even though they are from the same brood?

I had to ask since you breed them. Wink
Thanks
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Ozzy
Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 2:45 am Reply with quote
Retired Admin Joined: 15 Oct 2005 Posts: 508 Location: Nicaragua
I personally feed 6 days a week when juvies and 4-5 times when bigger Very Happy
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daint2003
Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 3:49 am Reply with quote
Advice Team Joined: 12 Nov 2005 Posts: 61 Location: Saigon, Vietnam
Quote:
you have concluded that is indeed a hybrid?

Yes, I did. Dr. Loiselle said that Midas/RD hybrids look alike RD and we rarely see specimen that look alike Midas. For long time I don't know my fish are pure RD or hybrid. One day I found one specimen different from others. At 7 or 8 cm, the difference was small but I can feel it, then I decided to raise him up till now, he is about 20 cm. Here has a very thin lip, here is his picture last month:


He definitelly look alike Midas from that I can say fish I own are all Midas/RD hybrids. There is one thing I experienced myself but Dr. Loiselle never said that there is number of hybrid are something between RD and Midas, it is very hard to say what they are from their shapes! Like guy below:




Quote:
how often do you feed them frozen shrimp

I buy a bag of tiny live shrimp (1-2 cm) at fishstore every day. It is just for carotein supply. Fishstore is very close to my house so I don't have to store frozen shrimp.

Quote:
Would the one fish that has began to morph be any indication that the rest would also turn out white with red fins? Or does every fish differ even though they are from the same brood?

My case, some fish turn out color early about 3 months old , some later about 1-2 months but all fish made it. For more info. you can read the article I gave you, Dr. Loiselle also said about color morph.
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TenaciousTankBuster
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 4:47 am Reply with quote
A. lyonsi Joined: 14 Feb 2006 Posts: 154 Location: Los Angeles, California
Thanks for the info.

What about blood worms?
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daint2003
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 7:45 am Reply with quote
Advice Team Joined: 12 Nov 2005 Posts: 61 Location: Saigon, Vietnam
They are red, aren't they? I don't know how much carotein they have but I guess they have just little.
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ray
Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 8:22 am Reply with quote
Site Admin Joined: 11 Nov 2006 Posts: 18


thats a midas from florida, thats nice color!
I found this in the waterwolves forum

http://forums.waterwolves.com/index.php?showtopic=98469
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TenaciousTankBuster
Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:58 pm Reply with quote
A. lyonsi Joined: 14 Feb 2006 Posts: 154 Location: Los Angeles, California
daint2003 wrote:
They are red, aren't they? I don't know how much carotein they have but I guess they have just little.


Yes they are red. I only bought a dollars worth, but I tell you it's alot. I don't want to throw them all in there because some already fell into the gravel because the fish didn't see them in time.

Just wondering, how long will they stay good for and stay alive in my fridge? I bought these last wed btw.
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TenaciousTankBuster
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 12:15 am Reply with quote
A. lyonsi Joined: 14 Feb 2006 Posts: 154 Location: Los Angeles, California
Sadly, I had another casuality in my tank yesterday. My smallest RD/Midas (and also the only one that appeared to be morphing and turning white) passed away. It was probably just beaten up into submission by what I think is another male.

Here is a couple of pics. Pretty sad really. If this is a female, it looks like she might have been white with red fins. Note the orange red in the fins...

It's weird tho, because I went back to the store to see what colors the others morphed into and nearly everyone was orange and a few of the fish were quite a bit larger then mine. Is there anything I could be doing wrong? God knows I feed them alot. Confused

Anyway I'm now down to 4 RD/Midas's. I'm anxiously awaiting them to morph. Epecially my big guy



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TenaciousTankBuster
Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 2:50 am Reply with quote
A. lyonsi Joined: 14 Feb 2006 Posts: 154 Location: Los Angeles, California
Ray wrote:


thats a midas from florida, thats nice color!
I found this in the waterwolves forum

http://forums.waterwolves.com/index.php?showtopic=98469


That is one hell of a beautiful fish. It's almost Golden in fact! I've never seen that morph before! Surprised
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Cichlamaniac
Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 8:42 am Reply with quote
A. citrinellum Joined: 13 May 2006 Posts: 29 Location: FairField
Its a red difinately cause they call red devils when their young "ugly ducklings". And when their young like that they r kinda blue with black tripes..

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Cichlamaniac
Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 6:39 am Reply with quote
A. citrinellum Joined: 13 May 2006 Posts: 29 Location: FairField
WOE Very Happy Daint2003 nice RD it looks like RD i dont think thats a midas.... But are midas cichlids a hybrid? Question Question

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